E-MAIL BAG

Attention all online pharmacies peddling Cialis and Viagra, all online brokers pimping that hot penny stock, all of you sexy honeys promising us a good time, all of you pirates selling software at reduced prices, all of you exiled sons and daughters of assassinated African kings who need our help and bank accounts to retrieve the tens of millions of dollars your corrupt governments have stolen from you, all of you liars who promised us three more inches and extra girth, all of you customer service representatives from eBay and PayPal who need us to update our credit card numbers immediately, and oh yeah, all of you with legitimate sumo takes, please note that our email address has changed to:

email@sumotalk.com

Subject: Sumo Disaster

Hi there, I think I have lost all respect for the Sumo sport, after reading about the mobbing, the killing, the cover-up, and not the least the coward behavior of the Sumo Association. Surely, most of the Asashoryu incident was a smoke screen. I am throwing up!

Staffan Hägg

(received before senshuraku of Aki)

Subject: CLANCY???!!!

Have you locked him up in the hotel closet or what???!!!! Tell me Clancy isn't really boycotting the next two basho! The comments just aren't the same without him!

Kristine D.

(received after senshuraku of Aki)

Thank You!!!!!!!! For coming back on day 15. It was just NOT the same without your sharp tongue and cunning wit! You are the only one who has me laughing til' I cry through the entire comments!

Kristine D.

Subject: Sumo Talk

Can I just say that I love you!!!! I have been trying to find out what exactly happened with Asashoryu since it started. I am now addicted to your site. I tried asking my Japanese coworkers and friends but they seemingly didn't understand or didn't want to say what I already knew, that Japanese people hate him for taking the sport back to the level of competition it should have stayed at in the first place. I hope they reconsider but it is not `Japanesey` to renig/take back ANYTHING said or reported. To say I am wrong, or made a wrong decision or spoke English incorrectly ect. Will never happen. I wish there was something I could do to show support to Asashoryu. This is a note from Annette. PS I am soooooo in love with Aminishiki and can see him moving up in the ranks quickly. He is showing improvements every bout. I LOVE IT!!!!

Annette

Ed: Nice to see that the chicks dig SumoTalk.  Thanks gals.

Note from Mike:  Moti Dichne has got to be the pioneer of providing sumo info on the web, and his continued contributions to the online sumo community are immeasurable.  After my blog entry entitled "Asashoryu should retire? What about Kitanoumi?", I received an outstanding email from Moti where he disagreed with my takes.  I replied to his counter arguments, then he replied again, I replied back, and so forth.  I have posted our informal debate here.  Please note that this debate took place at the end of August just after my blog entry and just prior to Asashoryu's returning home to Mongolia.  I wanted and needed to post this sooner, but the pending Aki basho admin made it impossible.  Enjoy...and thanks as always, Moti!

Yo Mike!!

I read your blog on "Asashoryu should retire? What about Kitanoumi?", and couldn't disagree more. I have been reading and translating this whole saga from the start-(was first to report it and the ramifications way before the kyokai) and must say that from the outset, the voices calling for Asa to RETIRE were very few and far apart. Everyone and his sister wanted to see him get his punishment, but not many sumo fans wanted him actually out. To compare the Kyokai's general problems to what Asa did in the past is irrelevant. Does that mean that because the NSK is allegedly running a scandalous, shoddy ship they don't have to address their top man's behaviour? I disagree. He's a Yokozuna, the others are not. And for instance, giving as an example Miyagino's transgression and comparing his standing in Sumo (he is regarded as a total incompetent idiot, even more tha Takasago..) to Asa's is throwing sand in the eyes of the beholder. As for the part about how the jungyo was hardly mentioned in the press - that is not the point either. I believe you know the importance of Jungyo for the masses. It has absolutely nothing to do with how many times it is mentioned a day in the papers. And in any case what is more "interesting" news? A jungyo in the heat or a seemingly deranged yokozuna sitting at home sulking?? If Asa were to join the jungyo from the start, the interest of the papers would have been the same- jungyo, for the reporters, simply is not that interesting. But it is for the people who get to see their idols up close.The only thing I agree to is the opening paragraph where you say that in Japan everyone who screwed up is expected to publicly apologize, real apology or not. So why didn't Asa? It would all have gone away, I promise you, or at least not been so "bad".

Cheers!
Moti

Mike replies: I think there could be some misinterpretation as to what I was trying to say in the blog entry. My whole point was to compare the sins of Asashoryu to the sins of others in the organization and compare the media reaction as well as the response by the NSK. Maybe I should have only used the Tokitaizan incident and not the others because that probably would have simplified things, but it doesn't make sense to me that you can have such an outcry over a rikishi's actions because he's a Yokozuna, but there isn't a similar reaction when someone is needlessly tortured and killed.

And while I generally agree with your points above (because I don't see how they contradict what I was trying to say), I disagree that the people who want him out of the sport are few and far between. From my experience in living in Japan and dealing with the culture, I read between the lines that people want him out altogether. The complaining about his behavior as a Yokozuna is just a convenient excuse to push as I called it "the anti-Asashoryu agenda". Furthermore, as I stated in my original blog regarding this incident, I didn't see anything in Asashoryu's behavior that was wrong or that warranted such a punishment. That view has been supported in the press by Hide Nakata, people from the Ministry of Education, and the guy from the Agricultural Ministry.

I don't disagree with your statements about the jungyo, and I don't see how they contradict anything I was saying. My point in bringing up them up was to continue on a previous rant where I criticized the Exhibition Committee members for implying that the exhibitions were equal in importance to the hon-basho when they're obviously not.

I have to strongly disagree with your point that it would have all gone away or wouldn't have been as bad had Asashoryu apologized. Not once did I read in the press that the public and the Sumo Association were demanding a formal apology. I did see where Takasago-oyakata was trying to organize a press conference where Asashoryu could apologize, but that wouldn't have made any difference in my opinion. Besides, as I mentioned in my original blog entry on the subject, what was there to apologize for? I stand by my original assessment that this was a witch hunt from the beginning and that it's no coincidence that we're seeing this huge backlash against the Yokozuna after he reached that 20th yusho.

Moti replies: I still think we can only speculate about the Tokitaizan affair. We don't know what happened, only rumors and speculation, from the same sources that are spreading the rumors and speculations about Asa that you don't buy.

Regarding the so-called anti-Asashoryu agenda, the facts show otherwise. He has been "problematic" in his Yokozunaness-much more so than any prior Yokozuna, foreign or otherwise. The only thing that happened was that he was treated pretty leniently, at least in my mind. I've been following sumo very closely for 40 odd years, and I remember quite a few yokozuna who were thrown out (or opted out by themselves, or apologized ) for less. Maedayama, Futahaguro, Kitanofuji. None were foreigners.

As for those coming out in support of Asashoryu, Hide was trying to cover his ass, so to speak. Hide doesn't know the first thing about the inner workings and intricacies of being a yokozuna, certainly not like you and I do. Same goes for the Ministry guys, who were quite ambiguous in their words, and have a vested interest in damage control, as should be. Asa clearly made a big judgment error. Maybe the cause was good, maybe Allah asked him to do it-he made a mistake. The jungyo are important in the large scheme of things, and saying you're injured and going to Mongolia (without permission-yes, sounds childish but that's how it works-the fact that he always goes to Mongolia without permission is exactly the problem) and then seeming to be genki and being a yokozuna to top it off will never, ever go unnoticed, regardless if he's a Mongol or a Japanese and numbers of yusho notwithstanding. I was sure he would get kicked out. Not because that's what I believe should be done, but because that's how it IS done and was done in the past, like it or not.

Regarding the importance of the jungyou, I do believe that the Jungyou Committee believe they are. Especially this year, when the promoters finally returned in numbers and there were 17 jungyo days, after the barren lands of yesteryear. A fan in the sticks in Hokkaido who dished out so and so yen to see his idol/hated one Yokozuna is going to be really disappointed if he doesn't show up, but shit happens. But if he doesn't show up (the YOKOZUNA, mind you..) and is apparently gleefully kicking a ball somewhere and looking sprite, that constitutes a real BIG disappointment coupled with anger and seizures.

You said that no one ever demanded an apology, but that's exactly my point. No one demands it-you have to DO IT. Just like you 
explained yourself-it's GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS that counts, not sincerity. I will steak my reputation that had he gone by that road, the punishment would have been much less severe. It's happened before.

Finally, I totally disagree that there was a witch hunt or any backlash after his 20th yusho. This latest was his 21st, and I didn't see any backlash after his 20th. If they wanted a witch hunt, they would have kicked him out altogether. What they didn't see coming was his apparently totally wimpy childish breakdown, which I don't buy for one second. Asa, who is very clever, threw them a curve ball that totally turned the tables.

Mike says: The Tokitaizan affair can only be speculated upon at this point...because the matter was dropped as soon as the Nagoya basho started. We're talking about an unprecedented death here, so it bugs me that the media did not pursue this incident the way that they have followed Asashoryu. Do you disagree with Nakata's statement that he thinks the media is taking this opportunity to "ijimeru" the Yokozuna? I thought that statement was right on. And I don't see what Nakata or anyone else would have to cover their asses for.

When I said that I thought the witch hunt began after Asa's 20th yusho, I was referring to the Shukan Gendai stuff. I blogged on that one back after the first article came out and explained that I thought yusho number 20 was significant. I pointed out how Shukan Gendai had a lot of their "evidence" way before they published the article, but they waited until after Asa's 20th because of the significance of the number.

I think what you have in all of this are people that hate the Yokozuna outright and want him gone, and the other side that although they may root against him, they realize his importance to the sport. Just look at the board of directors. I personally think that Kitanoumi was more than willing to let Asashoryu go back to Mongolia after the doctors recommended it, but there were a few on the board that vehemently opposed this, so Kitanoumi couldn't start a civil war among his board members on top of the current fiasco on his hands now.

I think the Japanese public is the same way. A lot of people hate him and think he's a disgrace, but there are those that either really like him or at least respect what he's doing...in the ring of course. It's obvious which side I'm on.

And then the media. Regardless what they think, they are going to fan the flames of anything to keep people on edge and coming back.

A big point where we disagree is on the Yokozuna's behavior. You say he is problematic, but I would phrase that as "he isn't Japanese." And I'm not talking about racism necessarily. He just doesn't know all the time how the Japanese expect him to act, so when he missteps, the critics are all over him. I think this latest incident is a perfect example. In Asashoryu's mind, he did nothing wrong. He wasn't trying to hide anything either. Yet, the Japanese way would expect him to know this already. Remember Chiyotaikai's first comments afterwards when he said "I want the Yokozuna to understand our culture"? I think that's where the conflict resides. It's misunderstanding from both sides, but there are those that love to make things a controversy and the media is more than happy to fan the flames.

You mentioned former Yokozuna in Maedayama, Kitanofuji, and Futahaguro. Maedayama lied to get out of a hon-basho. Asa didn't lie about anything, and we're talking about jungyo. You don't think other Yokozuna haven't exaggerated injuries to get out of jungyo duty? They all do.

Kitanofuji wasn't kicked out of sumo. He just got caught skipping out on jungyo for a vacation at the beach. Once again, that's far worse than Asashoryu's actions.

Futahaguro is the most relevant example that you mentioned because 1) he's the only Yokozuna to have been forced out in the modern era (post 1958), and his sin was solely behavioral in nature. Futahaguro set the precedent as I mentioned in my first blog entry. What Asa did can't even compare to what Futahaguro did, so how can you kick Asashoryu out? You can't, and they didn't.

We are just going to have to disagree about the apology thing. I don't think it would have affected anything, and the timeline of things was so fast, when was Asa going to apologize? The only scenario I can think of that would support your notion is that when Kitanoumi met with Asa and Takasago right after Asa returned from Mongolia, he asked Asa to make a public apology but the Yokozuna refused, so they made him sit out for two basho. I don't think that's a likely scenario at all.

And finally, we are both in agreement that Asashoryu is playing this whole thing up to get his way...and he will. You take the last word

Moti concludes: Tokitaizan's death was not unprecedented. We had two more of those these last few years. The difference was the papers reporting bruises and the fact that the guy ran away three times before it happened. The same rags also said he had a drug-filled past.

As for Nakata, well, he  was the one who indirectly caused the furor, so he felt he had some explaining to do. And no, I don't believe the Kyokai was out to get Asa. Asa was in the headlights for a long time. He should have used his brains a bit more. He knew it was a grey area, but he also knew that the bigwigs looked the other way in most cases concerning him, like not asking for permission to leave the country. Gross mistake in judgment-he forgot to take into account one small detail-he wasn't the lone yokozuna anymore. If anything, the fact the he WAS in the past gave him some sort of "immunity". I don't subscribe to any sort of xenophobic whisperings. On the contrary-he was given a lot of rope BECAUSE he is foreign. He just chose to hang himself with it.

Are you saying the Gendai is in cahoots with the NSK? Otherwise, I don't get your point. The "yellow" press has always been out to get Asa, there is no argument there. Just like they are out to get any famous athlete, actor, singer-whatever sells the paper.

I'd say the hatred for Asashoryu has accumulated over the years because of Asa's seemingly arrogant behaviour. Our only disagreement here is if they have a REASON to be pissed at Asa. I say they do. I may not agree with the severity and the handling of this whole affair, but Asa, in his infinite arrogance, gave them their reasons on a golden platter-reasons that could be "sold" to the public very easily.

Like you, I'm on Asa's side too.  I am a gigantic fan of his. I met him personally when he was in Makushita at keiko at Wakamatsu. I asked special permission from current Takasago to get a picture taken with him, because he is the "next yokozuna", as I put it bluntly ( I was right of course). After Takasago got over the initial shock of my even daring to approach him, he agreed, and I have a picture circa 2000 of both of us standing in front of the Wakamatsu kanban, which I am attaching to this post. We also has an hour long chat while I was having chanko (he couldn't eat, he was a mere toriteki..) about politics and stuff-very clever guy. I was hooked on him forever from that moment.

As for your assessment about a conflict of culture, I agree with that 100%. The blame lies squarely on his shisho's shoulders for not "educating " him. This notwithstanding, it's no excuse-He is a yokozuna, and he knew very well he can't go traipsing to Mongolia without permission. He knew the importance of jungyo. of at least showing up, ESPECIALLY at the present. He knew he did not want to go on jungyo. He wasn't in a critical physical condition, so bad that he couldn't go on the jungyo. He just wanted a much needed rest. I understand that, everyone does. BUT, he chose sumo-he knew his obligations-A yokozuna does not shirk his obligations without paying. We can deplore this, but that's the way it works. To ignore that fact is really not serious. You know it, I know it.

Regarding the issue of did Asashoryu lie or not, I think he lied outright. I personally couldn't care less if he did or didn't join the jungyo, but I don't pay his salary. He has nagging injuries, sure, but a 150 kilo guy does not fall on a "shot" elbow , then gets up laughing. He just won the yusho with those injuries. Come on..Still, if there were such yokozunas in the past, they weren't dumb enough to get caught, although these last years, they all came diligently. Musashimaru came with a broken hand.

As for the Kitanofuji incident, you are missing the point. He was allowed to got to Hawaii. He was dumb to get caught surfing by the media. BUT, he hightailed out of there and returned in 24 hours, apologizing his head off. Asa stayed on for 5 days and couldn't give a toss. As for kicking Asashoryu out a la Futahaguro, they didn't do it so good for them. They aren't complete idiots after all.. I just said I THOUGHT they would kick him out. That's just me.

No, I don't think anyone asked Asashoryu to apologise. If he had any sense, he should have done it on his own, and four days earlier. And I maintain things would not have gotten out of hand like the present.

Finally, I am very, very worried that in the end, he will get an offer he can't refuse from some FIGHT organization, will say "screw that!!", and leave. I am pretty sure this is what will happen.

--emails between Moti Dichne and Mike at the end of August.

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